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Car Stalls After Starting, Python 1400xp


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freqsounds 
Copper - Posts: 289
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 17, 2008
Location: Virginia, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 4:27 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote freqsounds
If you're content with the band-aid. You have a bigger problem there. If it worked for the past few years and just stopped working, there's a problem. They don't just stop working without reason. I can't tell you that the relay is okay. All it's doing is masking the overall problem.
The only thing I can say is it's not proper to wire a relay to the fuel pump for obvious reasons. The car's ignition wires and immobilizer handle the fuel pump cut-off, so the problem has to be with one of those two.
I would highly encourage not wiring the fuel pump relay this way for your own safety.
No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)
darinus 
Member - Posts: 34
Member spacespace
Joined: November 18, 2011
Location: New York, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 4:33 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote darinus
Correct it worked for a few years then quit. I replaced the unit and the same problem.
By running the relay to the fuel pump, isn't more of a bypass then a band-aide? The vats has been dosconnect with the original install.
freqsounds 
Copper - Posts: 289
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 17, 2008
Location: Virginia, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 9:13 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote freqsounds
By powering the fuel pump relay, you're energizing whichever circuit has not been energizing through a smaller gauge wire. Most fuel pumps have a 10 amp fuse, which means the wiring is usually 14 or 16 gauge. Sending 20-30 amps over this wire (and ultimately powering other circuits) will cook it and could set fire. What I'm trying to say is, a relay wire is too thin to power whatever circuits are not getting power in addition to the fuel pump relay.
No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)
darinus 
Member - Posts: 34
Member spacespace
Joined: November 18, 2011
Location: New York, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 9:25 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote darinus
That much I gathered. I tried to match the wire gauges to avoid that, with a 10 amp fuse. I had the car running in like this for over 2 hours and all the wires are all cool.
I will try to find a wiring schemating for the ignition to see which circuit controls the fuel pump. Ultimately I would like this unit to run the way it should, but this is a temporary work around until the weather warms up.
I assume this relay is powering up the missing circuit.
What I was thinking of doing is actuating this relay to activate that circuit, then trace the live wires in the ignition.
once I find those I will move the relay to power up from the beginning of the circuit, as opposed to the end.
But I think I am getting closer to solving the problem.
freqsounds 
Copper - Posts: 289
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 17, 2008
Location: Virginia, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 9:37 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote freqsounds
If you absolutely need the remote start, I would recommend using a 5 pin relay to take it off the original circuit. Cut the wire after the relay that goes to the fuel pump.
85 - +12V fused (200mA)
86 - 200mA ground output from alarm' ignition, the thin gauged wire
87 - +12V fused (10A, check the owners manual to be sure)
87a - fuel pump relay side
30 - fuel pump, pump side
This way, you're completely isolating it from the rest of the car.
Be sure to stripe a diode across the coil of the relay so you don't cook the brain.
No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)
davep. 
Gold - Posts: 635
Gold spacespace
Joined: May 27, 2011
Location: California, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 9:48 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote davep.
Back in November, in post #6 in this thread I suggested that the fuel p[ump was not being powered during a R/S. I was right. I know these cars. I'm quite familiar with 1996 Riviera, as I maintained one for a neighbor for 10 years. Just for the record I'm an ASE Master, certified in all mechanical areas. I've been wrenching cars, boats and yachts for almost 50 years. I am VERY familiar with GM wiring and engine strategies.
Very first thing:
Does it start and run normally with the key?
If = YES it is your connections from the R/S to the IGN wiring that are at fault. It is NOT the car. There is no single wire from the IGN switch for the fuel pump. The pink and white wires do it all.
I also see conflicting reports. You say "fuel pump not powered during crank". But the initial problem was "starts, but dies-out [from lack of fuel] after it quits cranking". These are two different sets of symptoms, with two different causes. Which is it? In the first, it shouldn't even start, because the pump was never on. In the second, the pump was on during cranking, but turned off.
There are three IGN wires. Orange, Pink and White.( I do not see a "pur/wht" wire in the diagrams at the IGN switch. In an earlier post, I explained what pur/wht in a GM is. It is NOT to be powered by a R/S.) Orange is important because it powers the electric cooling fans, without it, the car can overheat during a R/S because the fans won't come on. If pink is not powered, it will not run. so your pink is fine.If white is not powered, there is no request to the PCM to fuel the engine. The PCM controls the fuel pump.
Check the white wire again.
If it is 12V in run with R/S, but not during a R/S crank, this is your problem. You probably have the white wire configured as an ACCY output rather than an IGN.
If the white wire is not powered-up during CRANK, the fuel pump will not be enabled.
Take off all the band-aids and work-arounds. Figure out what the real problem is. Probably that you have the output feeding the white wire programmed as an ACCY, and it needs to be IGN.
darinus 
Member - Posts: 34
Member spacespace
Joined: November 18, 2011
Location: New York, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 9:55 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote darinus
Thanks, I will look again tomorrow.
The white wire is a thin gauge wire?
davep. 
Gold - Posts: 635
Gold spacespace
Joined: May 27, 2011
Location: California, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 10:00 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote davep.
Yes. White wire is thin gauge
There are fuses under the back seat. You might for grins check them.
Is your car Supercharged? The fuel pump wiring is different. Knowing will help me look at the correct diagrams for your engine.
davep. 
Gold - Posts: 635
Gold spacespace
Joined: May 27, 2011
Location: California, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 10:18 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote davep.
I'm curious, and it will help me understand what is going on, as to what color wire at the fuel pump relay you connected your "band-aid" to?
`````````````````````````````
I'm also perplexed by, but haven't overlooked the fact that you had the same symptoms with two different units, and that the original problem came on after years of trouble-free service.
What could it be?
Did the original installer use T-taps? And the replacement unit was installed using the same T-taps on the ignition wiring?
T-taps are notorious for becoming intermittent and problematic with time.
darinus 
Member - Posts: 34
Member spacespace
Joined: November 18, 2011
Location: New York, United States
Posted: February 08, 2015 at 10:34 PM / IP Logged Link to Post Post Reply Quote darinus
It is supercharged.
The heavy gauge wires are soldered together. There are a few taps, but to the brake switch and stuff like that.
I can't remember a white wire in the ignition, but hey after looking at all these wires, I could be forgetting.
With both units I have the same problem. Everything seems to be powering up, and I get voltage over all the wires. The older unit had a satelite relay, this new one is self contained with the relays. Originally I thought one of those relays In the satelite relay went, so I decided to swap out the unit altogether.
The wire that can be programed should be set to ignition. When I changed it to accessory , the car did turn over just cranked. I switched it back, so it should be programmed correctly.
This white wire sounds like the one, I just don't remember seeing it!
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