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Thief Proof Alarm Question


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atomsite 
Member - Posts: 36
Member spacespace
Joined: November 13, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 12:05 PM / IP Logged  

Any suggestions on how to thwart the thief?

I'm new to this alarm thing, didn't know anything about them until my truck got stolen. Never had an alarm. Of course now I want an impregenable fortress.

I looked at 4 alarms from 3 different manufacturers. How come they all use an orange wire for the starter kill relay. Wouldn't the thief just cut the wires or yank out the connector(s), then jumper 12 volts to the wire? Am I missing something.

Further analysis reveals that you can't use this wire to interrupt the starter if you have remote start. Well you can, but then you would have temporarily bypass it to start the vehicle. Instead of jumpering this wire you would have to jumper the remote start wires. I'm sure thieves that don't want to go to prison have done their homework.

It seems to me that placing the alarm in the cabin of the vehicle is not the best place. Generally its easy to gain access. I would think the engine compartment would be more secure provided there is an adequate hood lock; making it more difficult for the thief to tamper with the wiring.

Does anyone know of any alarms that meet industrial or mil-spec environmental requirements. All the ones I've seen warn you not to place them under the hood.

Outside of the initial nuisance of the siren going off what good are these alarms? Is there any way to make them thief proof? Are these alarms simply to slow the thief down? If so, any suggestions on the best method to accomplish this?

From what I can discern, those paging alarms may be the best solution. That puts pressure on the thief because they know the owner is going to show up at any moment.

the12volt 
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Location: Louisiana, United States
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 12:27 PM / IP Logged  

No, there really is no "thief proof" alarm. If someone really wants your vehicle bad enough, they can load it onto the back of a flatbed and drive off with it, but alarms can be great deterrents and are only as good as the installation. In most cases, potential thieves will not attempt to break into a vehicle if they know the vehicle has an alarm or if they believe they will trigger the alarm while doing so. Obviously an alarm can not prevent someone from breaking into your vehicle, but they can make it more difficult to steal your vehicle and often they make the potential thieves look for another target. While paging alarms may notify you of a break in or even an attempted break in, you're better off creating a disturbance at the vehicle by sounding sirens & horns, and flashing lights. This will do more to scare off the thief and prevent further damage to your vehicle by drawing attention to your vehicle.

Thief Proof Alarm Question -- posted image. the12volt • Support the12volt.com
youngblood 
Copper - Posts: 77
Copper spacespace
Joined: September 22, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 12:44 PM / IP Logged  

I'm afraid I'm in concurrence with the previous two threads.  BUT a couple of things that you might want to consider are as follows:

In the last dozen or so years... I would have to say the number one method of choice to defeat an alarm system is to cut the power to the vehicle.  Keep in mind that this method is usually encompassed for the thief that just wants what's in the vehicle and not the vehicle itself.  Coincidentally enough, it was done to my first car with my first alarm.  They like to pry up on the hood of your car...(battery side), just enough to access the cable of your battery (usually negative side) and cut it with a cutting tool.  Believe it or not, it doesn't take that much effort to pry up enough to slide some heavy industrial cutters that would cut your battery and consequently the power to your vehicle and of course, your alarm.  Then they go to town, homeboy shopping network style.  I've also come to notice that thieves like to shoot out your window with a bb gun from a distance.   This act is virtually silent and renders the interior of your car helpless to the usually agile piece of crap that will shimmy inside to disconnect the alarm under your dash.  This is where a glass breakage sensor or a proximity sensor would be used. 

Back up batteries are, in my opinion, essential and virtually always not utilized.  Such a simple concept.  Power to alarm goes off, alarm goes off.  What's not to like?  Under the hood I like to use magnetic reed switches instead of pinswitches.  I've heard that thieves are wise to inserting a flatblade screwdriver to hold the pinswitch down while they lift up on the hood rendering your pinswitch worthless.  As far as shock sensors are concerned... boy that's a tough one.... only because I've never known thieves to be noisy, bump in the night people.  They're sneaky, quiet, caniving, ruthless, uncaring, dispicable escape artists that prey on every weakness in security you present to them.  Good Luck... It's tough to think like a thief when you're not a thief.  But I hope I was of some help.  Good luck and I like the way you think.Thief Proof Alarm Question -- posted image.

atomsite 
Member - Posts: 36
Member spacespace
Joined: November 13, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 3:58 PM / IP Logged  

So far this looks like the most effective theft deterrent. However it lacks all of the nifty features of the more advanced alarm systems.

http://www.powerlock.com

youngblood 
Copper - Posts: 77
Copper spacespace
Joined: September 22, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 4:42 PM / IP Logged  
Partner.... what you've got there is a glorified starter kill.  It's virtually the same thing that many vehicle manufacturers encompass today.  If you've ever noticed some models have keys that are considerably fatter than a normal key.  These keys emit a magnetic resonance that is read by a receiving antenna which is installed around the key cylinder ring.  This is the reason for the Remote Start bypass units that enable remote start alarms to start the vehicles... without these (i.e. DEI 555) units the remote start would send 12 volts to start yet the starter doesn't respond..... I used to install these things at several dealerships and although when installed properly it is a novel idea, when it comes right down to brass tax, it's just a starter kill... nothing more.  Only difference being is one orange wire feeds negative to the starter kill relay.... what you've got pointed out feeds a coded signal to the relay.  I'm not sure I want to ask what it costs.  I promise you that it, like every starter interrupt out there, can be bypassed.
Detective 
Member - Posts: 5
Member spacespace
Joined: November 17, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 5:44 PM / IP Logged  

Well done Mr. Youngblood! I see your skills haven't failed you. I was wonderring when you might reply to my E-Mail I sent you on your direct address? I hope you got it?

You are correct. If a theif really wants your car he'll take it on a tow or at gun point (which I have personally witnessed within the flip of a coins distance).

You are also correct about the immobilizer circuits found in many of todays vehicles. These can be added to many cars that don't already have them. Back up power is probably the closest thing to a thief proof alarm. This will usually catch them off guard but only the first time. Thats when they go get the tow. We all like to dress up our cars but that's exactly what attracts the thief in the first place.

Just like that beautiful gal you met some years ago swinging that short short skirt. Many heads turned but only one (I hope) ended up her man. I'll bet she doesn't dress up like that any more and if she does I'll bet you've got you're arm around her all of the night.

Well a thief only wants what he doesn't already have or can't afford. He doesn't have the hot babe and he can't afford her either. So he takes her when your not around.

If you really want you can hide the alarm just about anywhere, including the trunk. It just means you have a lot of extending of wires to do. If you believe someone will get into your vehicle then procede to disconnect your alarm from under the dash then don't put the alarm under the dash. Also use unconventional methods of wiring. Use all Black wires during your install and use labels as you connect them to thier functions. When your done peel off the labels. Besides who else will you have working on your car and what business is it of theirs where or how your alarm is wired. There are lots of ways to slow down a thief but shy of tying a string to your foot and to the doors of your car and sleeping in the living room armed and ready to defend your property, make sure you have everything insured including all add ons.

atomsite 
Member - Posts: 36
Member spacespace
Joined: November 13, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 5:53 PM / IP Logged  

Yeah, maybe you're right. I thought the Control Unit actuates the relay module using a digital word. The module is bonded to the starter so there is no way to jumper around it.

Perhaps I misunderstood. If they use a 12V logic signal from the Control Unit then that can easily be jumpered. It wouldn't be better than anything else available. However if they are sending a digital word to the Module then it would be tamper proof. Only because they glue it on with epoxy. Of course some people may not like this alteration.

Hmmm, I'd better e-mail them for clarification.

Teken 
Gold - Posts: 1,492
Gold spacespace
Joined: August 04, 2002
Location: Aruba
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 7:03 PM / IP Logged  
If many of the people in this world followed these simple words... 90% of your problems would be gone...
PARK SMART, BE AWARE, DONT ADVERTISE, LOOK TWICE !!!
1. There are two types of thefts: Smash and grabs = You hope to get away with as little loss as possible. That is why you have insurance. If you're in a high crime rate area.
Then you would obviously purchase the lowest deductable possible. This would of course mean you would be paying more per year in your premimums.
But why keep paying off $500.00 every week? Opposed to $100.00?
This doesnt mean its fair, or even remotely acceptable. But it is being realistic ! You try living in NYC in Washinton Heights and see what will happen to your pride and joy, or to drive around in Harlem at 4 AM...
2) Anyone who is worth their salt and wishes to protect the simple smash and grabs, via the broken window. Will have taken the time to install some 3M protective window film.
This products is made and sold under many name brands. And if the proper film thickness is installed will even protect the driver from a 9MM hand gun.
No need to ask how I know . . . Been there, done that for 15 years...
3) 99% of the people who actually purchae a alarm system do not have a clue as to what their intentions are.
A) Are you protecting the vehicle?
B) Are you protecting the contents?
C) Or is it all of the above?
4) The alarm is only as good as the installation, and that comes down to experience and the time to allow that great tech to do his / her job properly.
TIME = MONEY . . .
PERIOD ... For every installer I have heard say I can install so and so in XXX hours, from start to finish.
Consider this simple thought . . . Do you really think he could have removed the entire dash, or fabricated a casing to enclose the alarm CPU in 2 hours?
Or to actually run fake wiring, or route them in such a manner that does not lend itself to being disabled?
No...
I could go on, and on about what could be done... But, if you follow the four phrases above first and actually make it a lifestyle.
Then, 90% of the battle is done... The rest comes down to spending the time and $$$$ to speak to the tech about your needs, and being honest with them, as to what you expect.
And in turn... The tech / company wont treat your car like a Pizza, and makes it a walk in, walk out affair as you see everyday...
Its all about volume and sales... But for that one guy, who might be you... Come to them, and be direct and honest about what you will pay to do it right, and not be a pizza...
Just my thoughts
EVIL Teken . . .
atomsite 
Member - Posts: 36
Member spacespace
Joined: November 13, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 26, 2003 at 7:39 PM / IP Logged  

Well, it appears the thief expects the alarm electronics to be located under the dash board on the driver's side. I suppose the best thing is to locate it somewhere else that is difficult to access. Maybe behind the passenger side air bag. I can see how installation costs can sky-rocket. The harder for the thief to get to it, so also for the installer.

I'm intrigued by the DEI offer to pay the insurance deductible if the vehicle is stolen, provided the alarm was installed by a certified dealer. Does anyone have any experience with this? Do they really pay off, or is it a marketing lie? This could help mitigate financial loss.

I notice that DEI doesn't post the terms and conditions of the warranty on their website. In fact customer service appears to be non-existent with the manufacturer. That doesn't give me a comfortable feeling.

I've started doing the leg work to find an installer for the new truck (Chevy Avalanche) I have on order. I've been to two installers that handle DEI products. Neither one knew anything about the GMDL4, PLDTA, WIN-DATA, etc. Modules that will probably be required for my vehicle. It made me wonder. I guess I should just call around and find someone who has worked on Avalanches. (Although I would think those modules would be used on other Chevy trucks as well.)

Can anyone make a recommendation for the Hollywood or Long Beach areas?

auex 
Platinum - Posts: 5,041
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: December 23, 2002
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Posted: November 26, 2003 at 8:38 PM / IP Logged  
atomsite wrote:

Neither one knew anything about the GMDL4, PLDTA, WIN-DATA, etc. Modules that will probably be required for my vehicle.

As far as that goes, dei has there own versions of these products so you should expect them not to know of these.
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