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what are some of the better subs for SQ?


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fugit 
Copper - Posts: 169
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Posted: July 23, 2004 at 7:41 PM / IP Logged  
Notice I said "better" not best.  Just wondering which ones sound good.  I listen to all types of music so I don't need LOUD bass, but I like loud and clear.  Right now I just have one ten alpine type r in a .85 cuft sealed box.  It sounds pretty good but I'm thinking maybe I should've bought a 12.  it only has like 200 watts rms to it until I get my new amps monday, then I'll have an Arc Audio 2100cxl that says it pushes 380 x 1 bridged.
"I'm Rick James bi***, enjoy yo' self Ah Ah Ah"
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pimpincavy 
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Posted: July 23, 2004 at 8:25 PM / IP Logged  
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dpaton 
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Posted: July 23, 2004 at 8:27 PM / IP Logged  
The tuning of the box and it's relationship to the transfer function of your car have more to do with the sound quality of a sub than the driver. Generally critically or slightly overdamped systems (Q = 0.707-0.5) sound tighter, and are easier to tune "flatter". Tuning the box so that you take advantage of the cabin gain of your car is also helpful, since higher dampening systems usually have a higher Fs and a smaller volume.
The second thing to look out for is Hoffman's Iron Law:
Small, low, efficient: pick two.
If you have a small box, you need a big amp and a driver that has a very large Xmax and a larger Xmech to handle the power and displacement required. If you need the bottom octaves and don't have much power, use a big box. If you need it small and loud, it just won't go that low.
In my own personal experience, I've had very good luck with 10s and 12s in smallish sealed boxes like yours, so it begs the question, what's wrong with your system now?
-dave
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T.Hill 
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Posted: July 23, 2004 at 8:28 PM / IP Logged  
Resonant Engineering XXX
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Steven Kephart 
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Posted: July 24, 2004 at 12:32 PM / IP Logged  

dpaton wrote:
The tuning of the box and it's relationship to the transfer function of your car have more to do with the sound quality of a sub than the driver. Generally critically or slightly overdamped systems (Q = 0.707-0.5) sound tighter, and are easier to tune "flatter". Tuning the box so that you take advantage of the cabin gain of your car is also helpful, since higher dampening systems usually have a higher Fs and a smaller volume.
The second thing to look out for is Hoffman's Iron Law:
Small, low, efficient: pick two.
If you have a small box, you need a big amp and a driver that has a very large Xmax and a larger Xmech to handle the power and displacement required. If you need the bottom octaves and don't have much power, use a big box. If you need it small and loud, it just won't go that low.
In my own personal experience, I've had very good luck with 10s and 12s in smallish sealed boxes like yours, so it begs the question, what's wrong with your system now?
-dave

I guess working for a manufacturer, I gain a different perspective on this.  With vehicles, usually you have a set amount of room that you can use, so you must choose a driver that is ideal for your situation, and will give you the Qtc.  and extention you desire in the enclosure you have room for.

But beyond that, I believe the driver has a huge impact on how the system will sound.   I suppose in the past, most manufacturers used an overhung motor, so all drivers had the same transient response and distortion products.  It is rare that you would see an underhung motor used in a driver, so the differences in drivers usually were in the resonance (fs) and Q's offered. 

Now that has changed.  You can find drivers with better transient response and lower distortion.  The former is caused by high inductance.  Overhung motors have long coils, and therefore high inductance.  But if you find a driver with low inductance, then transient response will be improved. 

Several companies now offer low distortion drivers.  They do this by optimizing the BL over excursion to stay linear, and thereby greatly decreasing distortion.  As Dr. Kipple, David Clark, and several other prominent engineers have shown, 70% of the distortion you hear in a driver comes from a nonlinear BL curve.  The rest comes from Cms nonlinearities over excursion (suspension stiffness changing causing about 23% of the distortion you hear), and Le (inductance) distortion (transient errors from high inductance).

To save space, I won't go into the actual designs implimented by each company right now.  But I will later if you guys want me to.  JL Audio offers a clever way of flattening out the BL curve in their W7.  Their downside as compared to the other designs is they aren't very flux efficient.  This can be seen by the high Qes.  We developed a new motor to offer flat BL as well which we call XBL^2.  IMO it is the superior approach, but I can back that opinion with factual data to make it less bias.  In our design we gain a very large throw  in a shorter motor, have lower inductance (shorter coil), and are much more flux efficient.  BTW, the XXX mentioned above uses our XBL^2 motor as well.  And finally Orion offers one in their H2 subwoofer.  Theirs is just a slightly different version of ours, but is also much less flux inefficient which is why they have such a high Qes. 

So in conclusion, I think there are better SQ drivers offered now using these technologies.  If you are looking for the best SQ driver, then I would recomend looking at a driver using the technology mentioned above.  But I will warn you.  We have found that a couple people are used to the distortion other speakers produce, and don't like the transparency the low ditortion drivers offer.  So personal preference is a factor.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

shaman 
Copper - Posts: 70
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Posted: July 24, 2004 at 2:28 PM / IP Logged  
Well your looking for excellent low frequency responce, a 10" will probably suffice.  Yes infinities are a good choice for more money look at the eclipse 8100 serries, also JL w0's.  Some models will work just fin in your sealed box but others may require a little more room for optimal low frequency responce, for example my eclipse 10" has just under 1.5 cutf net displacement.  380 rms will be plenty of power and should give you nice sound on just about any 10 or 12, it soundls like your looking for SQ, and not out to break your windows and disrupt space time.
shaman 
Copper - Posts: 70
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Posted: July 24, 2004 at 2:38 PM / IP Logged  
I was in the same boat you were about two months ago, I went with an eclipse 8102.4 because there was a good dela on e-bay, though it is an amazing sub.  I built an enclosure for optimum low frequency responce without trying to kill my driver efficency I may have went a tad large at 1.5 cuft, but the sound is absoultly beautiful. Run it from a precision power PC-2400 which makes 400 wats at 4 Ohms briged, and it actually makes that on a 4 Ohm reactive load, my speaker impedance is a little higher so I probably see closer to 300 rms on test tones and it is plenty loud.  Most of my friends don't belive its just one ten.  SO my point is one speaker set up right can sound better than system with mulitiple subs and outrageously large amps.  Your on the right track.
vbel 
Copper - Posts: 246
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Posted: July 24, 2004 at 3:42 PM / IP Logged  
Would it make sense to have more than 1 sub if all we want is good sound quality?
fugit 
Copper - Posts: 169
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Posted: July 24, 2004 at 9:09 PM / IP Logged  
Awesome answers, thanks.  That's basically what I was looking for, the learning of it all.  Theres nothing wrong with what I have, I just like learning about things I enjoy.  I was actually pretty impressed with how what I have sounds.  Bass is nice, and when I play Thunderstruck by ac/dc it sounds like the drumset is in the back seat.  I was curious as to what can make it better or how to pick things out.  Thanks again.
"I'm Rick James bi***, enjoy yo' self Ah Ah Ah"
Dave Chappelle as Rick James
forbidden 
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Posted: July 24, 2004 at 9:47 PM / IP Logged  
Vbel, yes it does make sense to have more than one sub. When you are using two subs there is a side effect that most people do not consider. Most people think that sure two sub will play louder and in fact they will (unless you are an idiotstick and wire them wrong (or use Bose)). The side effect is mutual coupling. Two speakers working as one. One sub may have to struggle to hit that nice deep note, whereas two subs tend to, for lack of better words, smooth out the response and get rid of the peaks and fill in the dips. A single sub system can sound absolutely incredible if done properly, this means amp ----> box ----> sub -----> install.
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